Why is there no entrepreneurial mojo when it comes to owner flown in Europe?

A bit off-topic, because this thread started out primarily as related to business flying, but …..

AF wrote:

It would be great if Europe lightened up a little and had some fun. :)

Sorry, AF, to hear that you’re not involved in a group that does this, i.e. goes flying for fun. I’m a member of such a group, and we have huge amounts of fun. We flew all the way around Italy last summer (12 aircraft, 25 people, 10 days) and everyone had a fabulous time. I’m hoping to go to one of the EuroGA flyouts soon, because from all reports they are also a great deal of fun.

AF wrote:

I completely agree with Mooney Driver and LeSving on their comments, based on my few years here in Europe (Austria).

Wow. I’ve lived in “Europe” all my life (50+ years) and I wouldn’t claim to know how all the 500+ million people think, coming from 30+ different countries with very different cultural backgrounds.

@AF
That’s too bad that you don’t have much fun flying in Europe – because we Europeans do.
If I suffered like you, I’d leave Europe ASAP .

I would say Europe is as easy as the USA if you never fly anywhere far, and let somebody else sort out the maintenance and such. So renting and local burger runs are just the same… just cost a bit more.

Renting used to be incredibly cheap in the USA. I recall seeing C150 hour-building block prices like $5000 for 100hrs, all inclusive. So those needing 100hrs at night for their ATPL could fly the 100hrs up and down at night for $5000…

The differences show up when you want to fly further, especially to different countries. And there are many. Most are not insurmountable, but relatively few pilots have the time and energy to do that sort of flying.

what_next wrote:

No. I already have enough, more than I need, actually. If all 7 billion people would have what I have and do what I do, we would be all dead from suffocation and exhaustion of food and resources. Stepping back a little, leaving some room and stuff for others as well, in short a little less of everything for us Westerners is actually better for everybody.

+1

We really do need a ‘like’ button!

AF wrote:

Europeans prefer to have an overlord regulating everyone’s steps and making sure no-one sprouts up too high and somehow gets an advantage over others

Actually, that is what a lot of Europeans have a big issue with, only that so far there has not been a lot of effective opposition to this. I’d say a lot of the resentment people feel about the EU is exactly based on overregulation. I’d also say that the current state of affairs in the US, namely the reason why you have the administration you have now, has a lot to do with the previous administration trying to copy Europe in too many ways. People resent that and called a revolution, which unfortunately often enough brings people into the limelight who are not necessarily the best to deal with it. We can see this in Europe as well, but it is not yet a real movement.

In aviation, we have actually seen a massive improvement regarding overregulation, EASA has turned onto a road which may well bring massive relaxation of regulation for small GA. Part NCO, ELA1 and 2 already are major steps forward in that. It is noteworthy however that some national CAA’s mostly in the very places which have been mentioned here have been trying hard to countermand, obstruct and not implement those relaxations, but thankfully have been forced onto the right way. For me, this has been a massive learning experience also in the sense not to take all the “it’s because of the EU/UN/EASA/FAA/e.t.c” at face value but to see which local authorities actually exploit the perception of overregulation for their own ends!

AF wrote:

Then, if they know me, they will be slightly embarrassed, because they feel like they could never ever achieve such a thing. To which I usually try to change the subject, or make it seem like the accomplishment is somehow less than it is, as I know they probably can’t afford to get into aviation… :(

In such cases I try what you do in the US, namely put the figures on the table and I do often enough get the same effect you get there. Once people know the background and not only the bull they hear, they lighten up considerably. Matter of fact, I did that at one workplace where I got attacked over my flying and it turned out that most hobbies people had at the time were massively more expensive in toto than my airplane. The perception changed from then on and I had several colleagues fly with me since.

AF wrote:

In both cases in Europe, my accomplishments are very much NOT appreciated, whereas in the US, they are admired.

I would not maybe say this for all of Europe, but there are certainly countries where this is the case. You live in one of them, so do I.

AF wrote:

In Europe, there seems to be an underlying need to justify everything with some kind of logic.

Again, I would not say that this is true in all of Europe and it is also something which the younger generation now are very much trying to change. There are countries and societies which very much function like that, where everything needs to be justified and people who have fun are seen as layabouts. I’ve seen that a lot, but mostly in places I would not have expected it. The age conflict in places like Bulgaria is outright frightening at stages where communication between younger and elder folks are almost impossible on that level. So much more interesting that GA has been thriving there like not in many other places in Europe… with many new airfields and a lot of people involving themselfs.

But you are right on the “justify” thing, I see myself doing that a LOT when it comes to all sorts of things.

AF wrote:

If it weren’t for a few true aviation enthusiasts I’ve had help from in Europe, I would have given up trying to fly here long ago.

I still think that this is also what keeps me going too. Places like this and some we have here in Switzerland, where pilots get together and talk aviation or simply have fun.

chflyer wrote:

Sorry, AF, to hear that you’re not involved in a group that does this, i.e. goes flying for fun. I’m a member of such a group, and we have huge amounts of fun. We flew all the way around Italy last summer (12 aircraft, 25 people, 10 days) and everyone had a fabulous time. I’m hoping to go to one of the EuroGA flyouts soon, because from all reports they are also a great deal of fun.

This is exactly why I’ve purchased my own plane. :)
So that doing things like this, and exploring will be a lot easier in the future.
The club scheduling was really tough, as I travel a lot for work (globally) and can’t really plan things perfectly weeks or months in advance.
Really looking forward to having the time and aircraft availability (soon!) to join in!

Airborne_Again wrote:

Wow. I’ve lived in “Europe” all my life (50+ years) and I wouldn’t claim to know how all the 500+ million people think, coming from 30+ different countries with very different cultural backgrounds.

If you haven’t really lived somewhere else long enough to be immersed in their culture, it would be tough to make a clear generalization.
I can easily say (from my personal observations) that most Asians don’t look like most South Americans, most South Americans don’t look like most Africans, and so-on. Does that hold true for Cape Town and Europe? No. Does it hold true for Nigeria and Europe, yes.
The world isn’t homogenized yet, so there are still general differences in culture and appearance of peoples.
I will clearly say that there are some common threads running all through Europe which are not found in the US, and vice-versa.
Of course it isn’t 100% accurate, my post isn’t scientific, nor is it an attempt at quantification of culture, just a qualification.

This is part of the reason why GA is so healthy in the US, and only really a hobby in most other regions. There’s a cultural difference. The point of the thread was to see if we could determine what it was that differentiated the two.
I can list 100 things that are exactly the same between Europe and the US which are completely different to Africa and the Middle East. But that’s completely off-topic.

Alexis wrote:

That’s too bad that you don’t have much fun flying in Europe – because we Europeans do.
If I suffered like you, I’d leave Europe ASAP .

A lot of the US has German ancestry, so a lot of people did leave (and I’m thankful they did). :)
My post seems to have hit a nerve. The point wasn’t to insult Europe, but on the topic of GA, Europe pales in comparison to the US. No question.
On a lot of other points, Europe leads the US. Not when it comes to GA though…

MedEwok wrote:

I must say I am suprised Adam still hasn’t given up under this barrage of arguments why owner-flown aircraft aren’t a sensible for many (not all) European business.

Maybe because like me he wonders that if the very idea is shouted down in an AVIATION forum, then why do we bother at all? That is something I’ve been trying to digest for a long time, not mainly here, but in other places. Sometimes i really think people like to dismantle and badmouth the very stuff they like to do. With “logical” arguments you can kill anything. The question is, why would one like to? just for the sake of destructiveness?

MedEwok wrote:

European geography: Distances are much shorter, giving GA less of an edge (or often even a disadvantage in door-to-door travel times)

They are but still a lot of places can be reached faster and more economically using GA. The main problem is infrastructure, not distances.

I had to fight my way in this line of argument two years ago at an AOPA assembly of all places!! People came by car or by train because they felt it was “uneconomical” to travel by plane. Holy cow, with any of those means of transport, my own travel time from ZRH to the West of Switzerland would have been near 7 hours both ways on the railway and 6 by car whereas it was 30 minutes each way by plane?? I left at 11 am at home and was back at 4pm, when all the ground pounders were still waiting for their train?

Honestly, I think a lot of people switch off their brains and just follow implied orders of political correctness…

MedEwok wrote:

European weather: Makes GA travel insufficiently reliable even for IFR operations when you have a fixed schedule

Again, mostly a problem of infrastructure. You mention them in the following arguments, bad opening hours, no IFR. There are enough airfields, more than enough in most countries, but most of them are private places with no interest to be infrastructure at all. The weather is not worse than in most part of the US, in some places actually quite benign in comparison. The trouble is that while in the US almost all local airports are IFR or at least a much larger fraction of them is, in Europe IFR procedures for small airports are often actively hindered by many folks even from within. The local airfield owners who shy the cost, the local pilot round tables who don’t want it because IFR is for the “rich”, local communities because then “we have noise even when it is raining”. I do hope massively that LPV will change at least some of this.

MedEwok wrote:

Most European countries are much to small to make GA a sensible transport proposition

As much as it gets repeated, it won’t get any truer.

Yes, you can be faster with the train or CAT if you want to got town center big city – town center big city. In most other cases, the problems lie elsewhere and in many they are made up to justify not to fly. I’ve had to use the excellent Swiss railway a lot in recent years but EVERY time wasted full days what could have been a half day trip or even less trying to “save the common fly”.

What has to happen in Europe is that aviation infrastructure must be completely revolutionized in the way that you will not get a license to operate any airfield or airport if it’s not common infrastructure.

If we as aviators ourselfs keep only collecting arguments AGAINST it, then aviation is indeed doomed.

Guys/Gals, I’d say it is easy to compare the US and Europe by just changing the subject a little and then mirroring it back, like this;
European GA is to American GA what American Rail travel is to European Rail travel.

Yes, it is possible to travel by rail in the US, and if you happen to live in a city where there is a good subway, your local experience might be alright. However, in general, rail travel in the US is terrible when compared to rail travel in Europe. I love traveling by rail in Europe because it is an unbelievably smooth and seamless experience. If I had never lived here, I wouldn’t know the difference, and wouldn’t have any point of complaint with the US rail system. Now I do.

Vice-versa with GA. Flying in the US is fun and easy. Period. There are airports everywhere, they are free, and typically, very well maintained. This makes flying much more accessible, which helps in the exploration/adventure category, which is a large part of what makes flying fun for me. (personal opinion)

@Mooney_Driver
Spot on with your points. Glad to have them added as well, because you’re absolutely right. I see change coming to Europe, and it is improving and getting lighter and easier, so thanks for adding your comments.

Some of the guys at Austro Control who are really driving things forward and helping tremendously to bring the EASA unification and simplification into reality. I have a lot of regard for them, and can only speak highly of them.

Mooney_Driver wrote:

The age conflict in places like Bulgaria is outright frightening at stages where communication between younger and elder folks are almost impossible on that level.

I’m so curious about Bulgaria. Glad to have your perspective, because it’s one of the countries I haven’t been to (yet). Thanks for that, I’m even more curious now. :)