Why is there no entrepreneurial mojo when it comes to owner flown in Europe?

what_next wrote:

Where I live the parking lots of Lidl and Aldi discount food stores are full of Porsches and Mercedes cars. And why not because after all they sell exactly the same products manufactured by exactly the same makers only with a different label.

Well, that is exactly what I said, isn’t it. Of course in Germany those discounters have a much longer history. When they started here in Switzerland, there was a lot of negative press and society rejected them upfront but went there “under cover” anyhow. Much like if you read in forums that “nobody” ever goes to McDonalds but if you ever need to go there you wait for 15 minutes in the queue. Wonder who all those people are if nobody goes there…. But with those shops it was even more pronounced, initially only immigrants were seen inside those shops but today they have taken over from the traditional Swiss shops for many people. Customer Loyalty (I remember vividly when there were a lot of people who would shop always at one of the two big brands here, but not the other) is completely gone.

Of course you are right that online shopping has started in the US. Today however, most of the real cheapo stuff comes from China.

chflyer wrote:

Surveys in Switzerland regularly show that people are mostly content with their lives, which just doesn’t sync with the statements above.

Most people asked in such surveys don’t know any different I’d think. And hardly any of them are involved in aviation or government service. Within the latter, satisfaction has massively plunged in the last 10 years since the government thinks it is a profit center rather than public service.

chflyer wrote:

The (grass) airfield where I am based completed a multi-million (yes, that’s right) infrastructure improvement and expansion project last year.

Yes I’ve seen that, my maintenance is based there. It’s a lovely upgrade to this field and you are very right, it is pretty well accepted around thanks to the good work of the current crew there. Nevertheless, fields like that one are those which are not really infrastructure but a private place for that particular club with massive restrictions for owners wanting to base there. Add to that a very expensive yearly club fee, a very unreliable grass runway which is unavailable for several months per year, I would have thought that rather than building new hangar space getting a hard surface runway would have done more to make this field more attractive, but as I heard this is totally vetoed by the communities around it.

chflyer wrote:

The airfield is just a place that people like to spend time, and that automatically generates business/activity. Mixing the general public with the pilots and aircraft, which is possible at the smaller fields if over-regulation can be held in check, is the best way to build an informed public and break down the prejudices mentioned above.

That is correct and it is there where Speck does a great job. It really is a family place to go to, thanks also to a great restaurant and pretty good access.

Alexis wrote:

I have no idea what it’s like where you live but I have never experienced that, living all my life in Southern Germany. Actually I live in a densely populated are in Munich for 15 years now with my family and I know next to nothing about my neighbours, excecpt the ones I’m friends with. It’s more a “live and let live” lifestyle, nobody really cares what other people do.

I’ve experienced much different in my early life and not much improved now. Maybe you live in an area where people are generally upper class. However, living like that, where nobody even knows his next doors is also not a very social behaviour? I’ve experienced very active and positive communities in the US and also in Scandinavia, where people really form tight bonds between neighbours without the “Blockwartmentalität” known throughout large parts of central Europe… Clearly it is a question of social standing but the neighbourhoods I’ve lived in when I was younger were very much like the example Silvaire quoted, constant observation, huge amounts of malicious gossip and constant threat of “consequences” if someone did not “behave”. I’ve been threatened several times with job loss while downsizing outside the social plan bracketts as those responsible took my flying activities as a reason to think I did not need my salary… And it’s kind of difficult to hide that you are flying when you work at an airport.

But while these things are possible to be avoided, it is interesting that the only reaction to my post is about the neighbourhood stuff. The far more striking thing in Europe is the austerity preached by the dominant countries within the EU and lived in governments all over, especcially also here. I do not want to go into too much detail as I know people read this here, but the way the government has been pretending to be close to bancruptcy even though the opposite is true, cutting jobs, cutting salaries, cutting everything which made government jobs attractive and generally behaving like Ebnetzer Scrooge in his worst days is something a lot of people here can tell about. Hundreds of communities in Switzerland are loosing basic services like post offices and other communal services due to austerity measures beyond any reason. Listening to these stinges who run our politics often makes one think we live in Greece, not in one of the richest countries in the world. Were it not for the fact that Switzerland is the only direct democracy and has all the options for the people to keep the politicians in check, just imagine what the Bern Mafia would do to us. It’s not for their lack of trying. And particularly in aviation there have been many cases where action of then ministers boarded on criminal treason. that mindset has not changed much, even though it is more hidden today.

Yes, you can argue that polls show that the Swiss are content with their lifes and so many should be. But the fact that in most regards life IS still good here has preciously few to do with our government, but is rather despite of them. Most other countries do not have the luxury of that and the results show that people are less and less satisfied how they have been served.

Or look at the austerity measures which have been imposed in places like Greece or Cyprus by the EU hegemonial powers. We discussed the sale of the Greek airports to German service companies but this is only the tip of the iceberg and it also shows clearly that the whole thing with austerity is not something to make those countries more stable or better but rather to enslave them and pick out their few assets while they fall further and further. There is total disregard for the people who are loosing jobs and livelyhoods over all this. Unfortunately none of these places had the courage to take steps to stop this de facto invasion but decide rather to sell their nations to the Troika and the EU. This is not going to help stability and peace in Europe, as many indicators have shown in recent years.

I need to add that clearly this is not something true for all of Europe. I’ve been to Norway and Finland and found a marked difference how people deal with each other. Norway in fact holds some of my dearest memories, it is a very warm and open society. No wonder aviation thrives there.

One of my favorite quotes by the editor of a great GA mag is still the one which states that it is by the way that General Aviation is handled that you can determine the degree of freedom a government is willing to grant it’s citizens. I find that very true. And that is one reason why GA is often misused by governments and politicians as a trial goat to figure out how far they can go in cutting away freedom.

Or look at the austerity measures which have been imposed in places like Greece or Cyprus by the EU hegemonial powers.

Sorry, this is getting really political now, but I have to answer… If you take a large loan/mortgage from your Swiss bank to buy a house for yourself and don’t send them your monthly payments for two months in a row, you will get evicted from your house, the house is going to be sold at auction and you will still owe your bank the difference between your lohn an whatever they could sell it for. In this case here, the EU has not waited for two months to take action and not for two years either, but for two decades. That was the bad mistake, not the “evil” measures which are taken now. That these airports are now put under the management of a company which has shown that it can generate an income from such a business instead of just burning borrowed money can hardly be a mistake.

@Airborne_Again
that’s exactly what I meant!

@Mooney_Driver wrote:

However, living like that, where nobody even knows his next doors is also not a very social behaviour?

That’s why I wrote “except the ones I’m friends with” ;-)

Other than that I think that, as we say in Germany, you “hear the grass grow”. My experience is, and I have grown up in two completely different countries, and have travelled 50 countries, that people are very much the same everywhere when you have a closer look. There’s Italians who love to wash their car, very good restaurants in England, and probably many bad French lovers (no experience here :-).

I am not into clichés much.

dublinpilot wrote:

Geez…reading this thread, I’m inclined to think “Glad I don’t live there!”. Then I realise I do live in Europe!

As someone who lives in one of the countries hardest hit by the economic collapse in Europe, and a country suffered most from austerity, I’m glad to say that I don’t recognise the description in Mooney Drivers posts.

I have to say, I had the same feeling when reading this thread (joining the party too late anyway I suppose). The picture Urs is painting is not the Europe I feel I live in, he is not describing the people, neighbors, friends, colleagues, I live with. I’ve seen good and bad neighborhoods, but nothing like this. I don’t have to hide that I’m flying from anyone. I usually don’t bring it up when meeting people because it’s not my “style”, but more often than not, others bring it up and people are generally either excited or bored, but not annoyed. The same way with customers (though my “customers”, as an IT consultant, are usually multi year relationships rather than one-time sales visits): I don’t wear a T-shirt saying “I’m a pilot” or whatever, but if the topic comes up at lunch, I’ll happily share my excitement for my hobby. With one customer, we’ve been doing fun flights once or twice per summer now for a couple of years, all on a private basis, everyone pays their share because otherwise it get’s dodgy. Overall, in my life and surroundings, I don’t see those mentality issues that are described by others as “European”.

I’ve been working remotely/at customers’ sites for a decade now. My company doesn’t like me flying for business (it’s not part of our “travel policy”) but I still do it from time to time and the single most relevant reason why I don’t do this more often and why it doesn’t make sense for me to push it more is that it really, rarely, makes economical sense here to any of my destinations. If I do it, I can usually only recover a fraction of the actual cost, otherwise they’d look at my like I’m a crazy person – and rightly so. If I ever change into a freelance or entrepreneur relationship, I might fly more for the love of it, but I have no illusions that I would regularly be more cost/time efficient than by using the existing public transport network or a car. That perspective actually changes if you get to load up the airplane with say 2-3 colleagues traveling with you – but traveling SEP alone in comparison to airline/rental car/car/high-speed train? Illusionary!

Now, we all love our airplanes, so should we wish for living in a society with a less efficient or non-existing public transport network so we could better justify our passions?

Alexis wrote:

My experience is, and I have grown up in two completely different countries, and have travelled 50 countries, that people are very much the same everywhere when you have a closer look. There’s Italians who love to wash their car, very good restaurants in England, and probably many bad French lovers (no experience here :-).

I am not into clichés much.

And two thumbs up for that statement (which ties in neatly with the anecdoctal arguments further up).

It’s the same with those travel guide books that tell you the do’s and don’ts in one country or another. “Don’t show this sign with your finger, it will offend people!” – “Don’t bring this up and that…” – “Don’t mention Cologne to people in Düsseldorf!” — These are usually IMHO highly exaggerated and based on stereotypes only. ACTUAL people that you meet tend to be very forgiving and will laugh with you rather than be offend with you. You actually don’t need a guidebook if you treat people you meet modestly and respectfully.

@Mooney_Driver

We discussed the sale of the Greek airports to German service companies but this is only the tip of the iceberg and it also shows clearly that the whole thing with austerity is not something to make those countries more stable or better but rather to enslave them and pick out their few assets while they fall further and further. There is total disregard for the people who are loosing jobs and livelyhoods over all this.

Well, that’s somethin that has to answered. I think it is not only an insult but a major conspiracy theory that Germany (and that’s the “hegemonial power” you were talking abou) wants to enslave (!) the Greek. I could now write a two mile long paper WHY i think this is unfair, but it has been done by people more clever than me, and it’s easy to find.

What really made me wonder is that you would support such a left wing parole.

But we can’t compare personal air travel to the cheapest Ryanair ticket where you get treated like a dog and dumped 120km from the city you actually want to go to…

Of course we can Try flying from any small “GA” field near my homebase (the nearest is over 30 minutes driving away from the city centre) to any small GA airfield near Berlin ( the nearest being almost an hour’s drive away from town) in any piston single in real central European weather. Every single one of your passengers (the self flying entrepreneur at the controls being a possible exception) will never talk badly about Ryanair again after such a trip. And especially when he learns about the cost involved. Additionally any Ryanair destination, however remote it might be, has some kind of shuttle service downtown. Your little “GA” airfield will have difficulties getting you a taxi of rental car which alone will cost a multiple of all Ryanair tickets together…

German policy toward Greece is not driven by a desire to enslave but by a lot of ideology and the conviction they are acting for the best (sort of like the US invasion of Iraq!). The problem isn’t motives (which are often positive) but serious problems with the assumptions that lie at the basis of policy.

This also happens in aviation too! (Take that as a feeble attempt to avoid deserved post deletion by our moderator!)

AdamFrisch wrote:

Is it because european business don’t see the same need for in-person meetings? Are they more tight-fisted with their money? Lack of vision? What is it?

I guess the real true reason is distances. In Europe, if you want to meet, you can do that within reasonable time, as long as you don’t live in the complete outback. You want to meet, fine, take a plane, or a high speed train, and in 80% of the cases, you’ll be able to meet your colleague / partner / client within 3-4 hrs, maximum. Meanwhile, this not only works between major EU hubs, but also mid sized cities.

In the US, distances are huge, trains take ages, cars even longer, and flying commercial just plain sucks. Connections, reliability, treatment is terrible, you’re being treated like cattle…. Additionally, getting to/from the airports of major hubs just isn’t possible under, say, two hrs. So, there is a lot of rationale behind getting your own airplane and flying it DCT from one small airport to another. Flying 4-5 hrs in your own SEP, in the US, still saves you a lot of time, compared to taking a train or commercial airplane.

If you take that time in Europe, and compare it to average travel time door-door, you’ll end up quicker, and cheaper, with existing connections. A private plane just isn’t necessary (anymore).

And it’s a lot less stressful. I know quite some people who take the train now, instead of a flight. Why ? Because you’ll end up right in the center of the destination, not somewhere in the outskirts. You spare yourself the security lines, the check in, all that nuisance modern air travel has become. You just reserve a seat, get there in time, hop on the train, and work, relax, eat or sleep. At your destination, you hop off the train, take a 10min taxi ride, and you’re where you wanted to be.

For GA to become popular, I guess the train is out of the station. If you don’t need it regularly, i.e. because you have special business need to visit all your outlets once in a week (like a guy I know who owns a chain of fitness centers), or if you aren’t a flight instructor, or if you aren’t truly into it, there is not really any other driving factor behind it.