Ibra wrote:
Under NCO & SERA you can fly IFR in Class G
The problem is not class G. The problem is Class E airspace! And that is used very differently across different countries.
First of all it is obvious that you need a clearance to fly IFR in class E (many forget that class E is controlled airspace even though you do not need a clearance for VFR).
The question is only what clearance you can get/expect:
In many countries ATC would not clear you below MRVA in controlled airspace because they effectively can’t control you. There are some local exception for specific approach procedures where they ensure separation (it’s ATC responsibility in Class E) by only clearing one aircraft in the entire procedure space at a time.
Even more difficult: Also for separation reasons ATC can not clear you for the lowest vertical 500ft of airspace Echo as again they can not ensure (vertical) separation there to uncontrolled IFR in the underlying airspace Golf. In some countries ATC doesn’t care about this rule but technically it is correct.
And that is exactly the challenge in Germany: As we use Echo very extensively and ATC is very closely sticking to the 500ft band, there is no way in Germany to legally transit between Golf and Echo in IMC – and as Echo in Germany is almost everywhere starting at a very low altitude, you can not legally fly IFR in Golf only either.
Ibra wrote:
ATC will ask you to cancel “their IFR services”
Be careful when flying in Germany: They never ask to “cancel IFR services” that ask if you “cancel IFR”. After that you are VFR with all consequences it has.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Be careful when flying in Germany: They never ask to “cancel IFR services” that ask if you “cancel IFR”. After that you are VFR with all consequences it has.
As long as you are not climbing back IFR from Golf it’s not an issue, 100% legal IFR but it’s outgoing only ;)
Of course without being on ILS/RNP nearby you don’t have that guarantee !
One has to distinguish ATC/AD/CAS limitations from SERA/NCO with regards to uncontrolled IFR….
Ibra wrote:
As long as you are not climbing back IFR from Golf it’s not an issue, 100% legal IFR but it’s outgoing only
Again: Not in Germany! You can not “cancel IFR services” as long as you are in Echo (=controlled airspace) you can either fly IFR in Echo (and will receive services) or you can cancel IFR and switch flight rules to VFR. As long as you fly IFR you will never get into Golf in Germany.
Malibuflyer wrote:
In many countries ATC would not clear you below MRVA in controlled airspace because they effectively can’t control you.
Why can’t they control you? The MRVA is usually determined by obstacle clearance, less commonly by airspace floors, even less commonly by radar coverage. If they can’t see you on radar, I agree they can’t control you but that seems unlikely.
A very different reason for not clearing you below the MRVA is that it is an ICAO standard that ATC should not, unless you are flying on a published route (e.g. an IAP).
This is a well known non-issue in Germany, where for some reason there never is any cloud between MRVA and the bottom of class E airspace, especially in areas where class E starts at 2,500 ft AGL and MRVA by definition is at least 3,000ft.
In other places you just get cleared to leave controlled airspace by descent.
dutch_flyer wrote:
So for example, let’s say I need to take the plane for maintenance from EHRD (CTR) to EHTE (ATZ), ceiling 1000’. I file an “I” plan, flying at FL40 (class E to 1500’) and communicating with Dutch Mil at the point when I want to descend. Do I file the low altitude and hope to break out? Do I fly a long final as you suggest, or do I descend to 1000’ and enter a VFR circuit? What do I request/expect from ATC?
This is a very Netherlands specific question. As others said technically IFR in class G is allowed by EASA, but NL has tried to make it impossible by prohibiting IFR operations from uncontrolled airports (in the AIP). The result is that you cannot file an “I” plan to EHTE during daytime (it will be refused by the IFPS system). For the flight you want to do you need a Y plan, with an IFR route from EHRD to some point close to EHTE and then put “VFR” in the route field to indicate the point where you’re going to continue VFR to join the normal VFR arrival procedure to EHTE.
Getting anywhere near EHTE the Dutch Mil Radar guys will usually already ask you “report cancelling IFR”. It is important to only do that when you are in clear weather and sure you can remain VFR all the way to EHTE. If you don’t have that, don’t cancel. Let’s say you’re at FL050 in solid clouds. In that case the right call is “request to descend to cancel IFR”. Usually they will tell you “descend 2000ft, report cancelling IFR”, because 2000ft is high enough to still be IFR. If you pop out of the clouds somewhere on the way to 2000 you can just cancel IFR and continue for the VFR arrival route to EHTE, all good. So not a descend right into the circuit, they expect a normal VFR arrival.
If however the clouds are at 1700ft you have a problem. They can’t clear you lower than 2000ft (their minimum altitude) and you can’t fly VFR above 1500ft in that situation, because from 1500ft upwards it is class E airspace where you would need 1000ft vertical separation from the clouds. They typically solve this by turning a bit of a blind eye to the minimum IFR altitude. If you’re at 2000ft in IMC and request “further descend to cancel IFR” they will not give you a new altitude (they can’t, the lowest they can give you is 2000ft) but usually will approve the descend. Technically there are some rules being broken, but it happens frequently.
Don’t try that second part with Schiphol Approach (as it used to be at Lelystad before the tower) you would be stuck at 2000ft.
How it will work in Netherlands if you plan to fly IFR and descend on nearby IAP first then fly VFR or IFR depending on condition to some VFR destination? do you file two back to back FPL: I + Y? or I + V? can you do with one Y FPL and ask for IAP in remarks and while flying?
Can you get departure clearance before staring the approach?
Thanks so much Thomas28. This is very helpful.
Incidentally I had to go to EHTE for an oil change yesterday morning, and it was MVFR when I got there and not much better when I needed to leave. I decided to try filing IFR back, and the Autorouter gave me a Eurocontrol valid “I” plan. So I filed it, then called Dutch Mil for the joining clearance. I got VFR until leaving the circuit, after which they gave me my IFR clearance. It was the least efficient trip back to EHRD ever, as they of course routed me around Schiphol. But I wasn’t in a hurry. 
Ibra wrote:
How it will work in Netherlands if you plan to fly IFR and descend on nearby IAP first then fly VFR or IFR depending on condition to some VFR destination? do you file two back to back FPL: I + Y? or I + V? can you do with one Y FPL and ask for IAP in remarks and while flying?
I am also interested in knowing this.
That in the Netherlands (at leat in my experience) is the same as in all other countries I know:
If you want to fly VFR after the IAP, you need a (I or Z) FPL to the instrument destination but noi VFR flight plan for the remaining leg (well, you need one if you cancel the approach in the CTR but this can be air filed). Just tell the approach or Tower controller as early as possible what your intentions are and it will typically be possible. Haven’t tried it in Schipol but only at smaller IFR fields in Netherlands but even at places like EDDF this is a more or less standard procedure in bad weather.
IFR after an IAP is a different thing: You indeed need an I and a Y FPL. This is not uncommon in training situations when you only do a touch and go after the approach. You typically get the departure clearance during the final segement, but not before starting the apporach (because you typically need to be on the Tower freqency to get the departure clearance).
Malibuflyer wrote:
If you want to fly VFR after the IAP, you need a (I or Z) FPL to the instrument destination but noi VFR flight plan for the remaining leg (well, you need one if you cancel the approach in the CTR but this can be air filed). Just tell the approach or Tower controller as early as possible what your intentions are and it will typically be possible.
So for example IFR to EHTX, shoot an approach to EHKD then cancel and fly to EHTX VFR?
Maybe a stupid question, but why are there not RNP approaches to more small fields? And there are a number of fields where there are in fact approaches, but they can only be used in special circumstances. EHTE, in fact, has an RNP that can only be used at night. Or LSCZ only allows Pilatus aircraft to fly its approach, since it’s the home base. I find this all bizarre.
