Peter wrote:
I paid £2k+VAT to get a KT76C replaced with a GTX330 at IAE (Cranfield), in 2005. I then sold the KT76C on US Ebay for about $1.5k (with an 8130-3, issued by IAE).
You already had the wiring for power, the encoder, the antenna.
Most gliders don’t have a transponder at all, nor the wiring to support it, so there’s no transponder to sell to the USA. Most simple wood gliders (which are still extremely common) are only worth £1k to £2k. They would not just need all the wiring put in, and the antenna, by a certified avionics guy – but a larger battery too which means replacement of the battery box and all the associated stuff around that. Costs would end up being more like £3k-£4k + VAT. The CAA were also insisting that paragliders, hang gliders, weight shift microlights – basically everything – would need Mode-S. At the time no low cost Mode-S transponder and encoder combination existed, so people with hang gliders worth maybe £1k were going to have to spend a lot of money on jury-rigging some kind of Mode-S transponder – and hump all that extra weight up the side of a hill along with their hang glider.
The vast majority of responses to the Mode-S consultation were from glider owners, in fact the CAA tried to dismiss it at first because “it’s only gliders and the BGA put them up to it”, which got the uproar it deserved. And had it not been BGA members and microlighters/hang glider people writing in, I’m sure Mode-S would have been imposed on everyone.
You also have to remember your situation is much better than that of many of the low end spam can owners, the £2k+VAT you paid is a lot of money especially when they will get zero benefit – it’s easy to lose sight of that when you’re wealthy enough to buy a brand new TB-20 and fly it 150+ hours a year! I would also have to imagine your installation was very straightforward given that just the transponder and encoder costs £2k + VAT to begin with – you had a very new plane without the old wiring on top of old wiring some of the low end stuff has. The reason 8.33 is costing so many people such a lot of money is that there are probably many hours being spent making up completely new wiring for the new radios. Personally I spent 8 hours making the wiring loom up for my new radio, plus another 8 hours putting it all in when I did it and my installation was reasonably straightfoward – had I not had an LAA aircraft this is all work I would have had to pay someone with a fancy bit of paper a high hourly rate to do.
The other thing is with 8.33 people are actually getting a benefit – quite a lot of people would like an excuse to get rid of their old shagged radios. I was glad to see the back of the Narco we had, even though it worked adequately. After replacing it with the GTR320A, I wish I’d done it five years ago.
Where do you get this figure from?
UK work I have seen.
The vast majority of responses to the Mode-S consultation were from glider owners
Interesting… I didn’t know that. However quite a few gliders are Mode C; just as well since I had a very near encounter with one near Shoreham recently. I climbed at 1000fpm (my max) but he didn’t have much trouble doing the same, except I doubt he ever saw me since he was underneath and climbing.
it’s easy to lose sight of that when you’re wealthy enough to buy a brand new TB-20 and fly it 150+ hours a year!
I don’t think that’s relevant. A new GTX330 installation would have still been about 3k. I am not defending Mode S; a near-100% Mode C mandatory use adoption would have achieved vastly more. I was just laying out the background to it.
The reason 8.33 is costing so many people such a lot of money is that there are probably many hours being spent making up completely new wiring for the new radios.
Indeed, although a fair number are skipping a few steps and installing e.g. a GTN650. There are cheaper ways to just install an 8.33 radio but it seems not many people are doing the cheapest solution.
The other thing is with 8.33 people are actually getting a benefit – quite a lot of people would like an excuse to get rid of their old shagged radios
One could make the same argument for a shagged transponder.
Otherwise there is no benefit to the pilot from Mode S and there is no benefit to the pilot from 8.33.
Peter wrote:
UK work I have seen.
I’m quite surprised still. I sourced both the radio (TY91) and the transponder from the UK (TT21) and while the hourly rate may be different between the UK and Hungary, the number of hours required should be the same. Basically, the installation of the TY91 and the TT21 took the same amount of billable hours (ca. 10) with 2 hours extra for transponder testing. Both were clean installations with new wiring and antennas. And the TY91 has been quite a bit cheaper than the TT21 at any moment in time.
I can hardly think about a situation where installing a mode S transponder costs less than a comparable 8.33 radio, unless you already have a mode C one which has a slide in replaceable mode S alternative.
Back to the original topic, is there any indication that ADS-B OUT will be made mandatory for VFR in UK Class G?
Not really any indication, but certainly aspirations.
It would make more sense to me to create a huge ADS-B out Mandatory Zone ten miles around and below all controlled airspace, such that if people want to be free of all shackles they can be in Devon, Norfolk, and parts of Wales and Scotland, but if they want to be under or near CAS they have to be visible and conspicuous.
Provided that ADS-B is light and either very cheap or free, that seems reasonable.
I doubt there’s the appetite for a UK mandate that’s not of direct benefit to the airlines Peter, unless they plan to occupy class G more than at present?
Radiating ADSB must by now have a tangible benefit considering the number of Pilot Aware and similar ADSB-in boxes apparently sold. Quite a few certified UK aircraft will have non-WAAS GNS430 and TT31 transponder, for which there is no STC or other approval to hook up ADSB. However, I’m given to understand that some are hooked up anyway. I wonder if instructions for doing this are in the public domain, does anyone know?
And regarding benefits, I’ve had far fewer (or zero) transit refusals since installing mode S, even though apparently most UK ATC can’t read it. And no difficulties in foreign airspace either, a completely different story to the old KT-76 transponder. And while we’re at it 8.33 was crucial last week negotiating Dutch airspace.
Peter wrote:
it’s easy to lose sight of that when you’re wealthy enough to buy a brand new TB-20 and fly it 150+ hours a year!
I don’t think that’s relevant. A new GTX330 installation would have still been about 3k. I am not defending Mode S; a near-100% Mode C mandatory use adoption would have achieved vastly more. I was just laying out the background to it.
It’s massively relevant. In fact it’s probably the most relevant part of it all: spending 3k on a transponder which gives the owner no benefit at all has massive opportunity costs if 3k to you isn’t just loose change behind the sofa cushion. For a low end aircraft owner, having to spend 3k on a new transponder that brings them no benefits at all means maintenance has to be deferred or useful upgrades (e.g. an engine monitor) has to be sacrificed, or flying hours need to be cut back. In the case of the really low end (owners of vintage wooden gliders) it would mean ownership would have to be simply given up altogether, with the problem that all low end glider owners are getting out leading to such a glut of airframes that you’d struggle to even give them away.
Peter wrote:
One could make the same argument for a shagged transponder.
Actually, you can’t make that argument. Most low-end spam can owners never fly somewhere a transponder is required and don’t really care if it works well or not – so long as ATC gets enough returns it’s fine, it doesn’t matter to them if it doesn’t show on your TB’s TCAS till they are within 3 miles because ground radar has really good directional antennas and will see even a marginal installation. At the time of the Mode-S consultation there were no cost-effective TCAS-type systems for light aircraft for the forseeable future, so having to spend a lot of money on a transponder and get zero benefit over the existing shagged out Narco AT50 that was 30 years old and would probably last another 20 just wasn’t attractive.
With a COM radio it’s different – most people use a radio every time they fly and are directly affected when trying to copy a scratchy transmission. Radios that crap out might deny them access to airfields they like to go to, and also cause distraction as pilots fiddle with the radio instead of flying. It’s amazing how much less painful it is to listen to London Info today than it was just one year ago, because so many scratchy old pieces of junk have been replaced with something better!
In contrast to the Mode-S debacle, now we are talking about low cost ADS-B units – some of which are truly portable and self contained – AND low cost ways of displaying ADS-B data. This is a much better proposition when contrasted with the Mode-S debacle, which was just big costs and zero benefit for the majority of aircraft owners – not even the promise of getting rid of low level class A airspace and improving GA’s airspace access.
I doubt there’s the appetite for a UK mandate that’s not of direct benefit to the airlines Peter, unless they plan to occupy class G more than at present?
An airliner gets zero benefit from ADS-B OUT. Its TCAS sees only Mode C.
I posted a Q on separation etc here but it looks like it’s been missed; too many posts 
I think alioth you misunderstood what I wrote. I was not defending Mode S and I am not defending 8.33. Both are useless in GA terms. The stuff about loose change behind the sofa is utter bollocks. With my family having come to the UK in 1969 with about £20 in total, plus our clothes, and with locals doing a collection to pay for a new pair of trousers for me so I could go to school here, I know the value of money rather well.
Aveling wrote:
mode S, even though apparently most UK ATC can’t read it.
Where does this myth come from? I suspect that one person once wrote it out of ignorance and it has been endlessly repeated since.
Nearly all UK ATC can see Mode S.
