I think one other aspect highlighted by this incident, which we have come to accept as normal in Europe but which really isn’t, is the fact that another sector’s requirements dictate what you will be allowed to do for avoiding weather in your current sector. That way, the current micro-compartmentalisation of sectors in Europe actually negatively affects flight safety.
What @Aviathor could easily do (change his whole route in flight) was probably more likely to happen because he stayed in the same country (France). But air doesn’t have borders and weather doesn’t respect those either, thus it seems ridiculous that thinking in national borders still affects the safety of flight in the EU in the 21st century.
As I said further above, it was 99% that FL160 was below the IFR minimum for that area. So it doesn’t even have anything to do with sector boundaries.
Maybe FL170 would have done the trick. Nobody likes climbing just before reaching his destination, but it’s still better than getting into problems. Cancelling IFR would have been another solution.
ATC didn’t say anything about that however.
I don’t think the pilot is required to know the radar vectoring area, especially when enroute.
Cancelling IFR exposes you to doing a CAS bust.
What Aviathor could easily do (change his whole route in flight) was probably more likely to happen because he stayed in the same country (France).
Where did that come from? I did not say any such thing, or I was completely misunderstood.
What I believe I have written is that the good approach is not necessarily to press on and end up having to declare an emergency because you’ve put yourself in a corner. If you cannot get a clearance that allows you to continue the flight safely, you may consider turning back and diverting rather than declaring an emergency.
I don’t think the pilot is required to know the radar vectoring area, especially when enroute.
Are you not carrying an enroute map and check the altitudes for the airways you fly on? IME it is absolutely important to have that information at had, of course more so when in IMC. I
If you cannot get a clearance that allows you to continue the flight safely, you may consider turning back and diverting rather than declaring an emergency
On an IFR flight? You must be kidding.
You are cleared to destination and are entitled to get ATC cooperation on wx avoids.
On a VFR flight, ATC are entitled to screw you and often do. That is the quid pro quo of VFR deregulation.
If you cannot get a clearance that allows you to continue the flight safely, you may consider turning back and diverting rather than declaring an emergency.
No, I can only repeat it (after talking to a Radar guy). If you don’t have a clearance to avoid a cloud, CB etc… you can act on your own without having to declare an emergency if you don’t get the clearance in time. You do NOT have to fly into clouds you don’t like.
You are cleared to destination and are entitled to get ATC cooperation on wx avoids.
I am not so sure about that. If you encounter weather conditions which are not compatible with the safe conduct of the flight for example because you are not able to climb above the weather or unable to circumvent it for one reason or another, diverting is an option.
You cannot press on at all cost, disregarding ATC instructions, declare an emergency in order to bypass ATC instructions if there is another option which is just as safe.
Declaring an emergency is a last resort. Not a joker.
Interesting view(s) on IFR in Europe; that’s for sure.
-N0152F110 SFD DCT ROTNO DCT KONAN L607 SUXIM DCT AGBUL DCT OLIVI DCT MND DCT OKIBA DCT ABTAL L173 RIXED DCT ABGAS DCT AMEXO/N0150F120 DCT OSDER DCT ADILO/N0148F130 DCT KTI DCT NIGEB VFR
Note the F130. And I was at FL160. On request I can spend more time, posting a terrain map with spot elevations.
The statement in post 134 has a number of logical consequences
all of which are completely bizzare.
All these points are however true for VFR and that is what underpins the entire relatively-deregulated VFR flying scene – ATC can always deny you further flight (in CAS) without giving a reason.
My point with this slightly provocative argumentation is to establish where the limit goes on ignoring ATC instructions or declaring an emergency just to keep moving towards your destination.
According to the picture Peter posted it was VMC 330° around, except in the very direction where he was pointed. ATC refused deviations around the stratus. Climbing may not have been an option for performance reasons.
If there had been a line of thunderstorms that could not be circumvented or navigated through given the onboard equipment, the decision would have been obvious: divert.
But in Peter’s case there is the option of disregarding ATC instructions
Where do you draw the line?
