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Alternate and diversion aerodrome - do you ask for PPR/PNR before getting airborne?

I occasionally fly light GA from northern UK to southern France and although I can fly direct I always request PPR and Douane at LFAT. Sometimes I request a second PPR at LFLS.

On my most recent trip from EGLD to LFMD there was a line of TS just south of Paris which I wasn’t able to negotiate so just turned around, landed at Le Touquet and stayed there overnight. If it’s only a diversion for fuel you’d probably get away with a tech-stop by staying airside but i don’t fancy a night on the back seat of a Piper.

LFMD - Cannes Mandelieu, EGLL - London Heathrow, France

My Colmar example was IIRC a flight from Croatia (EU, non schengen) so definitely in breach of immigration 24hr PN

Did you declare a MayDay/PanPan at Colmar? or just landed? 7700 will flatten things out for PNR for sure but will come with extra hassle (especially in France as BGTA/DGAC loves paperwork, they do ask for more paperwork than mortgage lenders )

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Mar 21:28
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

There is one thing you.can guarantee in France is that if they think you are trying to game the system, things will be made very difficult for you.
On the other hand, being honest and up front and polite will often garner sympathy and assistance.
This is not just in GA but in all walks of life.

France

That, however, means you need to speak French, fluently.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The douaniers in many regions often have at least one officer who can understand English reasonably well. But it would depend on whether they are there or not when you want to speak to them.
But avoiding the PN through diversion or emergency is.not something you would be doing regularly is it?

France

But avoiding the PN through diversion or emergency is.not something you would be doing regularly is it?

I don’t understand that question.

PN is PN; one doesn’t “avoid” it by diverting (mayday or not) to the airport which has “PN” in the AIP.

The only question is whether one can take off afterwards, after e.g. a refuel. That depends on whether one can reach the local police and have a dialogue with them.

One can get around PN on a departure out of the said country; if done the right way, they can’t do anything about it, provided you don’t do it often. You do then end up with a missing passport stamp

But it would depend on whether they are there or not when you want to speak to them.

Exactly… we may be in “aviation”, where English is the expected international language, but that may not be available outside upstairs in the airport tower. Again, one of the old problems in aviation, but one which has got a lot worse over the past 10 years or so, with so many airports (notably in France) having lost the C+I capability completely, and most of the rest going to 24hr PN.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I still don’t get it, you can always leave Colmar to LeTouquet and speak to the police at LeTouquet? 2h PNR may not work with TBM at max 330kts cruise…I am still not sure what law was broken? there is a national law that exempt you from PN for mayday & diversion on arrival to any airport while for departure you have fully complied with PN notice

If it’s after 7pm on Sunday that could be an issue to find new POE to stay within PNR for flight to UK (the only ones I know are Ostend & Lille)

If you depart from Colmar to UK without 24h PN you violated the law (even if you do nothing really comes out of it, of course you have to notify police and maybe leave your ID details to operator to deal with any of it…not suggesting you do this just highlighting it, the best solution is the one I mentioned earlier)

Last Edited by Ibra at 30 Mar 08:54
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

@Ibra totally agree you. The only problem I see is that there are not so many choices of airfield for pilots going to and coming from the UK.

France

The only problem I see is that there are not so many choices of airfield for pilots going to and coming from the UK.

With less than 24H PN the choices are indeed very limited except big H24 airports (and Calais & LeTouquet that are 2h PN), anyway, French customs don’t gave a hoot about PN for departure if they are not around

If we want to talk about inquiries after departure try Belgium to UK, especially Antwerp or CharlesRoi you are liable up to 4 million euros fine under law 27 June 1937 of Belgian aviation rules, Article 32 !

https://www.euroga.org/forums/hangar-talk/13465-eu-regulations-2020-877-all-eu-airports-have-customs-without-pnr-ppr/post/303752#303752

Last Edited by Ibra at 30 Mar 19:37
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

This whole discussion shows that once again it has to be stated that European airports are way too often not looking at themselves as public infrastruture but regard their use as a privilege. This is totally contraproductive and also imho a massive safety risk.

PPR is one factor. Outpricing another. Outlandish opening hours a third. Customs and Immigration a fourth.

Fact of the matter is that for most flights undertaken these days you need to observe PPR or other stuff on an absolutely regular basis. If you want to change plans in flight, it is often not possible or at the very least you risk running afoul of some airport kings or, worse, customs or immigration.

I would really like to know how many accidents or close calls have occurred because people did not land at thus restricted airports as their fear of reprecussion was higher than they evaluated their situation right then.

It would be a good initiative to forward to EASA, who are in name responsible for safety, to thematize the PPR and outpricing problematic from a safety point of view. NOBODY should be “forced” or even “strongly encouraged” to forego the safety of a nearby airport fearing for impoundment, $$$$ bills or the wrath of customs, not only in emergencies but also in absolutely normal operations. Airports need to be seen as public infrastructure and airfields who wish to restrict access to pay massively for the privilege to restrict their operation to locals unless there are very good reasons for it. In addition, the Strasser scheme should be made law.

PPR, Slots, outpricing should be outlawed and customs and immigration be delegated to local law enforcement who can be called in a short time.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 31 Mar 08:02
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland
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