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Alternate and diversion aerodrome - do you ask for PPR/PNR before getting airborne?

Personally, I have the feeling that “PPR” is handled differently from country to country. In Germany, PPR means often that a Flugleiter needs to be organized (with often expensive additional fees) and/or the airfield is only active with good weather during weekends. In Switzerland, PPR means often that the airfield is open to the public, but you need to listen to their automatic phone tape which mentions the actual conditions of the airfield, or you need to send an online-form, which gets approved immediately. So if you forget to obtain a PPR on such airfields, mostly, nobody cares as long as you pay your landing fees. Only when a Swiss airfield is “PPR-Restricted”, you really need a permission in advance, even as alternative. Or for the airports where a slot is needed.

Germany has however a perfect “PPR”-trap for motorgliders at controlled aerodromes. For example Dortmund, Baden-Baden or Leipzig-Halle require a PPR for TMG’s, even when normal SEP-aircraft is accepted without any prior notice. This is not done because of limited parking, but due some special local “policies” and counts also for alternates! Dortmund (EDLW) and Leipzig (EDDP) will most likely accept motorgliders when you call them in advance, but Baden-Baden (EDSB) don’t want to have any TMG’s at all, except when they need to land for maintenance. Such kind of restrictions are totally inacceptable, as a lot of modern TMG’s fly as fast as normal SEP-airciraft. Once I landed in Dortmund without this “TMG-PPR” as alternate, and I immediately got a ramp-check from the “Luftaufsicht”. (Btw. this happened on my second flight as licenced pilot back in 2017). The man asked me, why I landed without permission. I said, ATC cleared me to land, but than the man got angry: “You need PPR, it doesn’t matter what ATC will tell you, they don’t know about PPR-rules!” After getting an official warning, I was free to go, but I have a record because of this. Even a more scary detail: The German AIP doesn’t mention “TMG” at all, you need to know that a TMG is mentioned as “GLD(P)”, which means “Glider powered” and includes TMG’s as well.

Last Edited by Frans at 30 Nov 13:56
Switzerland

From here

As a slight diversion, what is the opinion in using Colmar as an unplanned fuel diversion on the way back to the UK, without giving the 24hr PNR/PPR?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

It is PNR, not PPR. Well, on paper you have to expect to not be able to depart to the UK before 24h have passed after you sent the request to CODT Metz. Of course, you could try to call them and explain your unplanned predicament, but it is not a given that they will clear you. And to get started, you would need a telephone number for CODT Metz. They don‘t publish it AFAIK, although I have it from previous interaction with them.

It‘s a shame, as we are merely talking about a departure, but that‘s the rules the French have put in place. German airports are better for such case, as they (those that are PoE) have either no PNR at all, or sometimes a couple of hours.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 28 Mar 20:03
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

I did it once, but had a French speaker with me who spoke to the police and they ok’d us to fly on. The man at the desk gave us the number to call.

I too thought they could detain you for 24hrs if they wanted to.

Strasbourg LFST would be better in that case

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

As a slight diversion, what is the opinion in using Colmar as an unplanned fuel diversion on the way back to the UK, without giving the 24hr PNR/PPR?

I am assuming if it’s part your FPL destination or alternate then lacking 24h PNR/PPR could be viewed as problem

If you are overflying and say run out of fuel and landed there unplanned, the aerodrome operator will let them know if it’s a public transport flight, if it’s a private flight you are supposed to give them a notification, if airport immigration is managed by police or pax are involved in your flight, I would make sure to get their green light before leaving, get their phone number from operator and call, otherwise, if it’s douanes + crew flight only, I would just “fuel & fly”

Last Edited by Ibra at 28 Mar 20:19
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I too thought they could detain you for 24hrs if they wanted to.

What do you mean? you have to wait for 24H PNR in a cell

I am sure you could always leave a copy of your passport and contact details (that is what I was told in Tours, we sent a lost PNR email, to the old military base commander who did not fwd it to the new operator, customs were not interested at all but we had a tough time with the security guy)

The law is here, it talks about non-POE and POE outside hours,

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/article_jo/JORFARTI000035871850

Last Edited by Ibra at 28 Mar 20:30
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Yes; that’s what "PN is. You land without PN, and you either have to fly back out again, or sit out the PN, or beg for forgiveness (in French, in this case). The option is chosen not by you but by the police. They can detain you (in a police station) because you broke the law by entering their country without giving the PN.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The other topic was for PPR, the airport operator & owner can ground your aircraft (don’t ask me how I know),

I am not sure what law you did break on a fuel diversion, the law clearly states you are fully entitled for diversion?

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/article_jo/JORFARTI000035871850

Of course, they may do an investigation and that can take a while…

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Mar 07:56
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Would you have broken a law if arriving from Germany? The problem would of course be leaving direct for UK without PN.

France

gallois wrote:

The problem would of course be leaving direct for UK without PN.

On arrival to Colmar without PN, you run out of fuel, you divert (or fall out of the sky), then fuel and leave your details and depart, I am not sure what law you have broken here?

Then send PNR to LeToquet, fly from Colmar to LeToquet without PNR (when was the last time anyone did this) and depart LeTouquet to UK with 2h PNR, I am not sure why you have to stay 24h stuck? of course if you depart from Colmar to UK without 24h PN you have broken the law

I know EuroGA flyer (he is French and no longer post here), who did exactly the same after getting stuck at Beauvais on the way from Toussus to Stapleford (I think he sent his PNR a bit late and was asked to wait few hours), he called Lille to check if their customs are OK from him to visit and fly to UK and he went there, long story short, depending on airport YMMV !

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Mar 08:14
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
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