Russian invasion of Ukraine

Ibra wrote:

The MiG29 deal was surely done at “lower levels” on US administration side, it’s on the table though as it has not been “rejected” by OTAN

lower levels being Sec State Blinken. It must have given those who think about the implications of Ramstein possibly being a base for these fighters a collective heart attack. Ramstein is most certainly one of the primary targets for any Russian pre-emptive strike, even without a bunch of to be Ukrainian fighters there.

Emir wrote:

Amnesia is very widespread disease in the Balkans. That’s why we have to re-learn from own bad experience every 40 years rather than from (own) history.

Amnesia as well as selective memory. The question is, how many people really think like that. Experience shows that the loudest are not necessarily the majority but they tend to overshout them.

Peter wrote:

a privileged ruling class (only about 5% is needed; the other 95% of the country can go and screw themselves)

Not new. Mel Brooks did a neat little scene in his epic “history of the world part I” about it.

It is completely inconceivable that any planes based in Germany would be flying missions over Ukraine, regardless of who the pilots are.

What would work is air-air refuelling (using US tankers) for Ukrainian jets, and this would be ok either side of their border. Doubt whether a UK tanker can refuel MIGs.

I am very sure Blinken is not stupid.

“to keep the following sub-populations happy:

the police and (the heads of) the armed forces
the party (which by personality selection will be mostly the lazy and incompetent; the principal form of exercise is to stand up every 5 mins and clap)
a privileged ruling class (only about 5% is needed; the other 95% of the country can go and screw themselves)
the lazy and incompetent (a very large part of any country)
those who want a simple life."
Replace “simple life” with “drugs” and you’re describing the UK. :-(

This Mig affair looks strange. Poland handing them over to the US in exchange for F-16s. Why would the US do that and what would it solve?

Almomst at strange as the new war jargon; Z and V

From here

Mooney_Driver wrote:

IHMO this is a fairer solution than putting a blanket ban on anyone who happens to hold a russian passport for whatever reason.

Are we all assuming sanctions are supposed to be fair now? Russia, is inflicting a massive amount of pain, suffering, damage and death on a third country. Completely unprovoked. Point.
Between 65 and 60 percent of the Russian population, erroneously (still) hold the view this is justified because of the genocide committed by the Nazi regime in Ukraine. The Russian propaganda machine enforces this message very effectively every single day.

Part of the Western worlds response in order to rectify this world view is sanction Russians (regardless of their views). Fair, no. Effective, to be seen but definitely more effective than just sanctioning a small percentage.
Whether you’re a pilot, athlete, business person, or impacted employee from a company that has just removed its operations from Russia you’re impacted. Fair, no? effective? The point of sanctions is to inflict enough discomfort for the Russian people to finally stand up to its regime and do something about it. That’s the Russian peoples job, it’s their dictator. The discomfort that is applied until that happens is the collateral damage. Until then, I struggle to be massively sympathetic…

arj1 wrote:

You are talking about punishing the people that has already left and have nothing to do with that state.

I don’t think it is about punishing at all, I just don’t think collateral damage can be avoided for the sanctions to be effective. The alternative, is worse…

LFHNflightstudent wrote:

I don’t think it is about punishing at all, I just don’t think collateral damage can be avoided for the sanctions to be effective. The alternative, is worse…

Really?

A huge number of Russians have left Russia because of Putin. Many of those still have relatives at home so they keep their passports or they have not yet had the chance to get naturalized whereever they are now. They are as much enemies of Putin as anyone else. Punishing them is like if you had punished those who fled Germany before the war because they could see what Hitler was for being German,a country they had to leave for their own safety.

The alternative is, as @arj1 rightly sais, to punish those who really deserve it. Not those who deemed themselves in safety from the same evil we are trying to fight in a new chosen home.

Mooney_Driver wrote:

The alternative is, as @arj1 rightly sais, to punish those who really deserve it. Not those who deemed themselves in safety from the same evil we are trying to fight in a new chosen home.

I’m sorry but I fundamentally disagree with the statement that sanctions are about punishment. Sanctions are there to drive change and that ONLY works if it is bringing a level of discomfort that pushes people to change their habits. If people who have left Russia all start complaining to their relative still in Russia about how they are being ’’treated’’ because of this war at least the message will hit. The alternative is all out war…