A year and a half later 
What is the best route for a UK PPL/IMCR holder to get
assuming he’s following the sort of route described in this thread i.e. not spending 80-100k at an FTO?
Presumably you need to find an FTO which is EASA approved, but aren’t all of them? How could a “CPL/IR FTO” get much business if not capable of issuing an EASA CPL/IR?
And you will need two medicals, so you need an EASA Part-MED approved AME.
Tricky on the EASA IR component unless willing to move to EU, probably Poland or Lithuania being more budget friendly.
In theory the CPL and non ATO IR components can be UK sourced, but a EASA IR has to be examined in EU airspace.
More relevant is possibly getting FAA papers as I understand the pilot shortage there has resulted in the USA granting work visas again to foreign pilots. Also there seem to be good packages for people starting on the regionals.
a EASA IR has to be examined in EU airspace.
I heard about that but actually that’s been the case for many years. In fact all/most EASA IR training had to be done in the EU (not, for example, in the US). And now that the UK is outside the EU, its training apparatus presumably ranks same as e.g. the US, Australia, etc.
the CPL and non ATO IR components can be UK sourced
The CPL training is/was possible in the US, so EASA CPL training should be possible in the UK. Checkride in the EU, sure.
What are the “non ATO IR components”? Do you mean the 30hr component of the CB IR route? Finishing off in the EU would be pretty easy.
Would an EASA approved UK FTO issue a UK CPL/IR and an EASA CPL/IR at the same time? In fact can they issue an EASA CPL without the holder having an EASA PPL?
More relevant is possibly getting FAA papers
This chap is getting a 61.75 FAA PPL anyway, and then he has the two well known routes to the FAA IR (the Foreign Pilot Exam, or the standalone FAA IR checkride) both of which can be run on just a UK medical.
The reason I posted it in this thread is because he definitely won’t be depositing 80-100k somewhere
The other fairly obvious route is to do a purely UK CPL/IR (say 30-40k?) and convert the finished thing to EASA. The PPL conversion is the ancient 100hr route (a lot of previous threads – example). The CPL conversion is… what? The IR conversion is the same old CB IR route which is 50hrs IFR PIC, no exams, oral exam, checkride. And then you can use any UK FTO, with total flexibility.
Do you mean the 30hr component of the CB IR route?
Correct.
You can get the EASA CPL in the UK, but you will need credit for the dreaded 14 exams which depends when you took them, and when you started the process to get an EASA CPL.
You could then get a UK IR and then go to the EU and take the EASA IR.
Some schools in the UK have their FCL.900 authority from Malta, which may allow an IR in the UK, but not sure how it works.
Peter wrote:
A year and a half laterWhat is the best route for a UK PPL/IMCR holder to get
UK CAA CPL/IR and EASA CPL/IRassuming he’s following the sort of route described in this thread i.e. not spending 80-100k at an FTO?
Peter, what about this one:
1. Get 2xClass 1 medical
2. Do ATPL theory with 2 sets of exams at a theory provider that holds dual-approval (UK+EASA)
3. Pass the CPL course and (and two skill tests?) at an ATO with dual-approval
4. Pass the CAA CB-IR course (10+hrs at an ATO) and skills test in the UK.
5. Gain the rest of the 50hr PIC IFR XC needed (ideally this is best done even before doing CB-IR in the UK – just cheaper)
6. Pass the EASA CB-IR in the UK (it should be possible as you already hold some other IR) or in, say, France, if it is not possible
Will that work?
One gotcha is that to freeze your 14 exam passes you need to finish the IR. AFAIK the CPL doesn’t do that.
But would a UK IR freeze the EASA exam passes? I reckon you would need to do both IRs to freeze the 14 exams for both UK and EASA.
This isn’t for me; it is for a young new UK PPL holder. I have zero interest in any commercial exams.
Peter wrote:
One gotcha is that to freeze your 14 exam passes you need to finish the IR. AFAIK the CPL doesn’t do that.
But would a UK IR freeze the EASA exam passes? I reckon you would need to do both IRs to freeze the 14 exams for both UK and EASA.
Not to my knowledge – you have to pass the EASA CB-IR relatively quickly after you pass your UK CB-IR, hence me saying it is best to gain 50hr IFR PIC XC while he has got IMCR – after that he passes UK CB-IR, then EASA CB-IR. And theory comes from the ATPL course.
A good route for a young person able to go to the US seems to be IMCR → FAA IR → (UK CB IR OR EASA CB IR).
The IMCR enables the logging of the 50hrs IFR PIC required for the CB IR. The FAA IR even more so but only abroad (flying Class A within the UK you would need a UK IR too; this part gets really mind-bending). Didn’t someone recently post that some FTO asked for a lot of evidence of the 50 IFR hours (printouts of the IFR flight plans?).
The complication is that for a candidate who wants to go commercial, he needs the ME. This can be done as just a quick conversion on each IR but the IR checkride has to be re-done. So the most likely route would be IMCR → FAA SE IR → (UK CB MEIR OR EASA CB MEIR) unless you need to fly ME N-reg which is basically either bizjets, or owning one.
Peter, with FAA IR the challenge is it have to be done in the US (at least for the theory), cannot be done it in Europe.
Plus the theory has to be done twice (ATPL in Europe and IR in the US).
Peter wrote:
A good route for a young person able to go to the US seems to be IMCR → FAA IR → (UK CB IR OR EASA CB IR).
Convoluted paths like these remind me of Elvis wearing a cross, a star of David and the Hebrew letter chai because he didn’t want to miss out on heaven due to a technicality.
Tht route involves three to six flight tests, training with three or four different instrument instructors, and instrument flying and testing in three countries. It sounds like a good adventure but hardly a cost efficient or simple one.
There is a cap on the amount of credit which candidates can receive towards FAA Part 141 training courses. In the case of prior training done other than at an Part 141 school it is 25 per cent. 14 CFR 141.77(c)(3). The minimum instrument training for an initial US IR under Part 141 is 35 hours so at least 26h15m of additional training will be needed. This means only about 60 per cent of the UK IR(R)/IMC rating training carries over.
It is possible for the UK IR(R) to fulfil most of the training time needing to be done with an authorized instructor for the US IR when it is pursued other than through a Part 141 training course. The remaining instrument time can be done under simulated instrument conditions with a safety pilot. However aliens undertaking flight training in the US are usually limited to enroling in Part 141 courses. A student visa is not required to attempt knowledge or practical tests. In theory, it should also be easier to find an itinerant pilot examiner in Europe now that the FAA has cancelled geographical limitations on DPEs, at least for US citizens. FAA notice N 8900.485.
Under direction from TSA many Part 141 schools will not plan to terminate the course early for student visa holders who wish to complete the course under Part 61, ie to take the practical test without graduating from the 141 course. In addition an early termination might remove the option for the post-graduation 30- or 60-day grace period under the M and F visas respectively. One of the designated school officials at an SEVP-certificated Part 141 school should be able to advise. In addition, applying for the US IR without going through a Part 141 course requires 50 cross-country PIC hours which under the US logging rules requires points of landing more than 50 nmi from the original point of departure.
It might be possible for the UK IR(R) flight training time to be counted towards the ten hours of instrument training which must be done at an ATO for the CBM IR by for candidates who do not hold both an ICAO IR and 50 PIC IFR hours. @RobertL18C or @Tumbleweed can possibly comment.
Peter wrote:
The IMCR enables the logging of the 50hrs IFR PIC required for the CB IR.
So does a US IR whose privileges can be exercised in the US on a temporary certificate immediately after passing the practical test.
Can US IR training not be credited in full towards the UK IR(R)? There are UK IREs in the US who should be able to administer an IR(R) skill test there.
The 50 PIC IFR hours option makes a great deal of sense for ICAO IR holders wishing to spare themselves the trauma of the Part-FCL IR theory course and exams. However, this advantage will be of little to no benefit to candidates aspiring to fly commercially. Further, low-time pilots should undertake some coaching before attempting a UK Part-FCL IR skill test. If such discretionary instruction rises to ten hours then it might as well be done at an ATO in which case only 15 to 20 hours of flight by sole reference to the instruments (note the distinction) as PIC are needed, assuming the candidate completes the ATPL exams.
If the candidate opts for an ICAO IR and 50 PIC IFR hours and wishes to initially obtain an IR-SP-ME then fifteen of the PIC IFR hours must have been done on a multi-engine aeroplane, in accordance with AMC8 to Appendix 6. Alternatively the candidate can obtain a US IR and undertake 15 hours of ME instrument training, ten of which at an ATO, which makes it more efficient to simply do 20 hours of flight by sole reference to the instruments as PIC. Otherwise the candidate could obtain the IR-SP-SE now and upgrade to the IR-SP-ME when market conditions begin to improve. The upgrade requires at least 5 hours of training and a further skill test. @Alpha_Floor might have relevant recent experience.
