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Homebuilt / ultralight / permit (non ICAO CofA) and IFR - how?

mmgreve wrote:

Italy can apparently be added to the list of countries allowing experimental IFR: http://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=25679

Dude, if you start taking PlaneCheck adverts as reflecting the legislation then you will be in for a BIG surprise …

To wit:

There’s a Lancair Legacy registered F-WOAH, that’s also listed on PlaneCheck and the owner states it as “IFR” ….

In France, the F-W### means it has NO AIRWORTHINESS certificate and is in the temporary testing phase BEFORE a permanent AW Cert may (might ?) be established. This plane has been in this state ever since it was built !

Last Edited by Michael at 08 Sep 05:59
FAA A&P/IA
LFPN

I had a long conversation with the owner / seller of F-WOAH , the Lancair Legacy listed on PlaneCheck.

The plane is on a temporary AW Cert. and has been ever since it was built. He handed the plane over for testing to the DGAC’s testing & certification grounds in Istres and they supposedly “approved” it for IFR flight, and despite that, he still has no permanent Airworthiness Cert !

Although he did not come right out and say it, I suspect the French CAA is putting the heat on and they could pull the plug on his temp pass at any moment.
FAA A&P/IA
LFPN

I know this topic has been discussed before, but I can’t find an exhaustive answer to it:

Is it legally possible to fly an Experimental aircraft under IFR in European airspace?
And, if yes, under which circumstances?

I know it is not possible for e.g. a German registered Experimental. But what about, let’s say, a Swedish one (heard that there it is possible) in German airspace?

Is there a European consensus amongst the countries or does every single one have a different regulation?

May thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Christoph

Last Edited by Supersonic at 03 Nov 14:04
EDNG, EDST, Germany

Sweden I know is possible.

A search with e.g. this

ifr AND homebuilt

(uppercase AND) digs out various threads. A few countries allow it, and the aircraft’s permit obviously must not have a VFR-only restriction.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Luxemburg allows it, Netherlands doesn’t. But immatriculation in Luxembourg is more expensive and more hassle than buying a certified IFR-equipped plane. Wasn’t there another country in the North-West?

Last Edited by a_kraut at 03 Nov 15:48
Bremen (EDWQ), Germany

a_kraut wrote:

Luxemburg allows it, Netherlands doesn’t.

Do you mean just registration or also airspace? If some countries don’t allow it in their airspace, then IFR becomes practically useless…

LSZK, Switzerland

Posts moved to existing thread on homebuilt IFR. Note that Europe doesn’t have a general “experimental” regime like the USA has.

Further back up this thread you should find some stuff on which countries allow non-CofA aircraft to fly IFR in their airspace.

To do it legally, you need a convergence of

  • the airspace allowing non-CofA IFR (most don’t)
  • the aircraft permit not having a VFR restriction (typically, European ones have it, N-regs don’t have it)
  • the aircraft is not banned from operating in the country in question (usually you can fly through, may need a permit, ma be limited to 28 days’ stay, etc)

It is basically useless.

There are a few that do it regularly, and if you know which types to look for you can see them do it on FR24 (can’t do Eurocontrol IFR without Mode S) but they tend to do it in parts of Europe where nobody is likely to care.

Gosh, that “IFR certified” Italian Lancair mentioned above is still for sale


Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

To do it legally, you need a convergence of

the airspace allowing non-CofA IFR (most don’t)
the aircraft permit not having a VFR restriction (typically, European ones have it, N-regs don’t have it)
the aircraft is not banned from operating in the country in question (usually you can fly through, may need a permit, ma be limited to 28 days’ stay, etc)
It is basically useless.

Not again …

No airspace in the entire world allow “non-CofA” IFR as far as know. Flying IFR you have to have equipment according to airspace requirements. The only (practical, economical) way to document that the equipment is according to airspace requirement, is to use certified equipment. For this reason there exists no non-certified IFR avionics anywhere in the world. The exact same principle is also valid for transponders and radios in Europe. The only practical/economical way to document that the radio/transponder is according to requirements, is to use EASA-certified equipment. There are no other requirements. If you find them, please show them with a reference.

It’s not a matter of being certified according to ICAO or whatever, it has nothing to do with it. It’s purely a matter of being able to document that the equipment satisfy the airspace requirements. Getting certified equipment is the cheapest, most practical and best way to do that.

Each country may or may not have an experimental regime. This has nothing to do with airspace requirements. Each country may or may not have restrictions on overflights with foreign homebuilt aircraft, but again, nothing to do with airspace requirements, and most EASA countries don’t. Each country may have restrictions on longer stay (30 days, 6 months, whatever), nothing to do with airspace requirements.

Besides, experimental aircraft in Europe are not normally non-CofA, that is mostly a UK thing. They are non-certified and do indeed have a C of A, but not according to ICAO. Having a permit to fly, and having a non-ICAO CofA are two very different things legally.

ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

It is true that you need certified avionics to fly IFR in most/all places, but in the USA you can install them in a homebuilt Lancair, etc. and fly IFR. You can’t do that in most of Europe, regardless of what avionics you have installed.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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