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Pros and cons of non-certified aircraft

The “facts” depends on whether one actually reads some of the posts, and spots the amount of goalpost moving.

None of the links posted point to reliable sources (except reference to German GEN1.17). It is all discussions about what people think the rules are, hence totally unreliable. Anything written may not be true the next day like France pulling out from all the bilateral agreements on permit to fly. Seems like a waste of time. Just winding people up.

Last Edited by Aviathor at 25 Jun 06:51
LFPT, LFPN

None of the links posted point to reliable sources (except reference to German GEN1.17). It is all discussions about what people think the rules are, hence totally unreliable. Anything written may not be true the next day like France pulling out from all the bilateral agreements on permit to fly. Seems like a waste of time. Just winding people up.

Everybody agrees the regs are often unclear or hard to find. The AIP is no assurance; it isn’t necessarily national law. Remember when Pontoise had customs and immigration, per AIP, but no longer in French law?

It is however completely wrong to say that this situation means it is “a waste of time. Just winding people up.”

That is why I used the word “research”. Anybody with the money to spend should have enough of a brain to do this.

This lack of clarity is just another factor to consider before purchase. If you want total clarity, for the long term, you have two options

  • buy a certified aircraft (then you have ICAO protection, subject to e.g. overflight permits in the 3rd World)
  • register it locally and fly only in your own country (which is what the vast majority of relevant owners do)

None of the links posted point to reliable sources

I suggested actually reading the stuff posted. For example look here under the heading of “Legal Sources”.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

The inability was for one single particular N-reg Europa with whatever avionics and other instruments that were installed at that time, and with presumably a non-certified Rotax 912/914. To my knowledge, in France you must have a certified engine to fly IFR (or approved or something?), but some of the French people here may clarify this.

It would be interesting to find out whether the French ban on IFR in non certified aircraft applies to different groups differently e.g. F-reg, non-F-reg ECAC, non-ECAC. I doubt it does but it would be useful to know because it would have a big effect on G-reg LAA types.

The info here suggests that somebody got IFR certification in an F-reg, which would not make sense if France banned it for its airspace.

I really would like to see the permit to fly of the F-registered homebuilds claiming being allowed to fly IFR. France is about the only country where I had to “do something” – means, pick-up my phone – to receive a 3 months only permit. For the other countries, receiving a long term overfly permit is typically sending an e-mail or a fax (for Germany).

Peter wrote:

IMHO the biggest limiting factor on homebuilt take-up is the need for permits and the other restrictions. Whether these matter to a particular individual depends on the individual and their mission profile.

This is true, it all depends on your mission profile. Operating an N-registered homebuild in Europe fits mine of some long EU trips during the year and typically in summer time. Otherwise local flights and trips of max 300nm one way.
If I had to do long trips (500nm+) all year round in potential icing conditions, I would choose a plane like a cirrus, a mooney bravo/acclaim or a cessna TTx and preferably FIKI.

Belgium

I really would like to see the permit to fly of the F-registered homebuilds claiming being allowed to fly IFR

Looking at that link I posted earlier, if you can find the owner of F-WOAH he might know.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Looking at that link I posted earlier, if you can find the owner of F-WOAH he might know.

Looking at these posts
Michael already checked that F-Wxxx registration is a temporary one and so cannot be considered as something usable on longer term.

Also, a further internet search leads to a new registration: PH-FFA.

[ corrected from PH-FAA to PH-FFA ]

Belgium

That was well found! So that leads doubly nowhere at all, now that a PH-reg is apparently no good in France after 28 days’ parking…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

PH-FAA is no longer based in France.

Bordeaux

@Peter, could you correct my previous post? The new reg is PH-FFA, not PH-FAA.

Belgium

Done

Curiously, and very unusually, PH-FFA doesn’t come up on google at all. That almost certainly means it has never (or almost never) flown, or it flies only in very remote areas.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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