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Secrets of Greece?

I think that, like the UK, the Greek military can see "quite well" (for obvious national security reasons) but the data is not available (or mostly not available) to civilian controllers.

Peter it is not avaialable as a "data feed on screen" but they talk with each other (CIV MIL) very often for any coordination or information needed.

MIL radar service for CIV aircraft IS available for VFR traffic workload permitting. If you call up on 129,80 the MIL radar generic callsign "TUGRIT" with your position the closest radar station will then respond with its callsign. You then proceed with what you require/request and they provide it most of the times. They don't name it as official RIS or RAS but they confirm radar contact and provide you RIS equivalent as long as they are not really busy on the UHF channels. They can see almost everywhere in Greece, at very low levels, much much better in comparison to CIV radars. Usually if you need to contact them you stay in contact with FIS on one box and with them on the other. They also relay any message you need to CIV colleagues.

For example when I flew into Hania LGSA, I got a procedural VOR approach. This is at a huge semi-military airport, with four F16s sitting next to the runway threshold

Peter Chania is a very active military base housing Hellenic Air Force and NATO forces in combination with Souda bay naval station to its north. The civil part is a tiny one in relation to the rest of airport's operations. They do us civilians a "favor" by accepting co-existence ! and this is done in the absence of other civil airport in the area. The aircraft you saw next to the holding point are armed scramble formations on 4 or 2 minute readiness for intercept flights in eastern Aegean. They have full priority. You may be on final approach, asked to cancel and by the time you are climbing up again they will be already taking off on afterburners ! You will never realize because the party takes place on UHF.

There will be airspace classification below FL195. How cool is that? Just wait for the next AIP/eAIP. E, D, G and their variations everywhere.

atmilatos that is good news ! We'll be watching Greece AIP for this ! Hopefully a chart will come along with it from CAA but I assume the greekhelicopers.gr chart project will also update their existing VFR chart immediately after.

LGMG Megara, Greece

This is all very good information about Greece!

So today there is no airspace classification at all in Greece? I never noticed because I only flew IFR there and airspace classification doesn't matter when IFR.

The only airspace classification that officially exists today is Class C above FL195. The new classification will affect all airspace at and below FL195. The AIP already contains some information concerning the services provided to flights, but it is not very clear.

LGMT (Mytilene, Lesvos, Greece), Greece

Another secret of Greece just out.

A waiver decision was issued yesterday to exempt aircraft from paying airport charges in Greece (1,63 / day EUR reg - 7,34 / day non EUR reg.) for period May 22nd 2013 untill March 31st 2014.

I have not seen the message sent to local CAAs yet but my source is reliable.

LGMG Megara, Greece

Well, just a fews days too late for me...;-)

Yesterday, I had to pay ~36 Euros for 4 days at Skiathos (N-reg.) BTW, I also had to pay 22 Euros for my passenger (declaring him "crew" to did not work without a pilot's license...), because left towards Serbia. I understand that pax fees are lower for intra-EU flights. But those are however not covered by the waiver, are they?

Mainz (EDFZ), Germany

Yes for intra EU it is 12 Euro per pax per departure whereas for off EU destination it is double. This is passenger tax and not airport fee (the one that just got waived off).

"Crew" classification of the one of the rest works sometimes up to a second p.o.b. and only at some "GA friendly" airports. There where CAA officers do their jobs by the book they don't accept it unless the 2nd p.o.b. has a pilot's license. There they don't stick to the detail of whether the specific aircraft type is 2 crew operation or not and choose to simply deal with it on a license held or not basis.

LGMG Megara, Greece

I've been thinking of flying to Greece for years but the reports and the AIP entries of bureaucratic nonsense at almost all airports have kept me out and will continue to do so unless I find reasons compelling enough to cope with it.

Airports the size of LGKR and others who impose restrictions to small GA due to "Lack of tarmac space" (and yes, I've been to Kerkira often enough and know their layout!!" need their collective heads examined. Likewise Samos and others who "don't have space" for a Piper Archer on their ramp but can deal nicely with up to 20 airliners. The message they are sending is clear: "We don't want you, stay away!"

Examples like those of that tower crew who work 10 hour shifts on a closed airport, make me wonder what sanity exists there.

The Greek state needs tourists and the money they leave on these islands, yet a lot of their airports are not accomodating to GA at all. That, for me, is a contradiction in terms. They should have a look at places like Croatia, where the big airports will welcome small aircraft with pleasure and open arms, at prices which are inviting. PPR? What the hell for, we're here, so come and see us, buy some Avgas from us, pay landing and parking fees and go and feed our hotels.

I've been looking at flying into Greece, I have friends in Sparta and some others near Athens... Planning wise, it is a nightmare I am not ready to put up with.

Going into LGKR, I will basically need 3 hours of fuel on arrival to make sure I can proceed to the nearest Avgas Alternate which are Brindisi or Dubrovnik! Then I will need to be able to give them 3 or 4 days notice for PPR for them to accept me at all? Give me a break. The same goes for island airports which are often open for 2 hours a day but occupied all day long? What the hell for? Either you are closed, then go home and don't pay for people who sit there on a closed airport, or you are there and then you are open?

It is this kind of bureaucracy which has helped a lot getting Greece (and others) into the condition their are. Frankly, sometimes I think there is a direct connection between how GA is treated in a country, which freedom it has and how a country does economically.

Ever since I have tried to be honest and pay a parking fine in Kerkira, a process which took me the whole day and went through 8 different offices in 8 different places, I've given up on Greece until they do grow up. I would not fly to India either btw.

No offence to our esteemed forum members, I do highly appreciate that you give good advice here and I can appreciate your situation. It is always so that if you grow up in a certain situation you get used to it and try to rationalize the inevitable, but frankly, to most of us who live in places where things like the above are (still) unacceptable, we tend to compare with places we know and make our bills...

I do hope things brighten up in countries like that, who are actually in the need of customers and who at the same time push them away with outdated bureaucracy.

Best regards Urs

LSZH, Switzerland

I've been thinking of flying to Greece for years but the reports and the AIP entries of bureaucratic nonsense at almost all airports have kept me out and will continue to do so unless I find reasons compelling enough to cope with it.

Greece is not Switzerland for sure but your tolerance level seems to be pretty low. With a Mooney your endurance should be good and in my opinion, Greece is definitely worth the effort. I only met friendly, helpful people and you can't blame them for Avgas scarcity because there simply is no business case for it. With more than 15 million tourists going to Greece every year, a few GA aircraft are completely irrelevant so we should be glad that there are airports open to GA at all and there is Avgas. In many ways Greece is easier than Italy for GA aircraft.

No offence to our esteemed forum members

None taken because you say the things as they indeed are with our public sector and the "marketing' strategy, especially in GA related services. GA in Greece is a bother for all involved in serving it. It is a very tiny piece of the pie and hence no one bothers to take it seriously as a clientele.

From an environment (I assume) you are coming from its logical to see things this way.

Other pilots when they encounter this stuff simply say, "I don't give a ******* about your mess, I come here to enjoy your country, not your service", soon they forget the negative experiences and enjoy the rest which always pay back.

Its really up to each individual how much they can personally accept and your stance on the issue is understandable.

LGMG Megara, Greece

Hallo Achim,

With a Mooney your endurance should be good

Well, it is not bad but the situation in Greece with the very limited Avgas availability is a major problem.

I have 52 USG available and approximately [email protected] kts. With reserves this means about 4.3 hours or 550-600 NM. The fuel situation in Kerkira e.g. and the non availability of Avgas and Customs at any of the nearby places means I will need fuel to go back to Brindisi or Dubrovnik (the nearest Avgas spots) plus the final reserves there of 45'. That means, I will need approximately 2.2 to 3 hours landing fuel at LGKR.With my endurance I can plan to LGKR from about 200 NM away.

For my operation, I want a suitable alternate plus 45 minutes reserve at all times. So after Corfu, the remaining Greek Avgas spots are isolated destinations in my read, that is out of range mostly as there is no airport with Avgas available that allows to reach it with those parameters. I will not fly to isolated destinations, meaning destinations where I have to comit without a suitable alternate, unless they have 2 separate (non intersecting) runways.

With more than 15 million tourists going to Greece every year, a few GA aircraft are completely irrelevant so we should be glad that there are airports open to GA at all and there is Avgas.

True. Yet, it is a total nonsense to have airports play games with us and tell fairy tales about "no parking space available" on a x-thousand food large tarmac such as Kerkira or others, to "close" down airports despite the fact that they have staff there (doing what on a closed airport actually?) and just not make use of their equipment and airports.

In many ways Greece is easier than Italy for GA aircraft.

Yea well, that is easy. I don't know any country which is worse within the EU than Italy and that is why I don't fly there at all, but for some selected destinations I would consider mostly near the border such as Bolzano. Otherwise, I am one of those who regard Italy as "LI-P1", that is a prohibitive area for me and my operation. Neither do I fancy flying a single at 1000 ft AGL for prolonged periods of time, let alone over the sea, nor do I fancy haggling over outrageous Avgas prices or exorbitant handling / landing fees.I'd fly there IFR but as my plane and myself currently are not IFR, I avoid Italy like the proverbial plague.

I choose where to spend my money and have long decided that where I am not wanted, I will not go if there are places which obviously are happy to have us such as in France, Croatia/Slovenia and others.

Best regards Urs

LSZH, Switzerland
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