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VFR cross-country from EDFM (Mannheim) - LFSN (Nancy) and back

Nice report, well done.

Forever learning
EGTB

@boscomantico: Just like you I have done my last VFR flights to France without any preparation for airspaces because it is just mad and depending on the route next to impossible. It has worked fine just like in your case but I have had situations where the clearance was a bit too implicit to my taste. In Germany I am used to hearing “cleared to …” before entering a class C/D, danger, restricted, etc. area but in France it is often done in a fashion like “just continue, I’ll tell you when it’s not possible”. When asking for confirmation “am I right that I am cleared to enter … ahead of me” you get something like “yes, sure, continue”. The issue is what if I lose radio contact and I’m in the middle of this maze without a clear way out? I have lost FIS several times in France, there are areas that are not well covered and more than once the FIS station did not give me the correct frequency for the next station.

Nowadays I only do IFR in France but I wonder if it really always such a non brainer when VFR or whether there are situations when it can bite you.

nice trip report, but looking at Pfälzer Wald pictures – this is not giving too much chances to an emergency landing when the fan is off. Or is that just an impression from snaps and there were plenty of good places just next to the picture frame?

LKKU, LKTB

No, there are indeed very few suitable clearings there. It is certainly better to go a little higher than I did.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

A very good report.

However I would not plan a DCT via the French mil airspace. When I used to fly there VFR, pre-2006, and when I continue to fly there IFR nowadays, which bits are active and which are not is pretty random. On a weekend much is inactive but on a weekday this is not the case.

It’s difficult to comment on a writeup which is obviously not a complete list of the pilot’s thoughts and plans but the problem with having planned what appears to be a DCT and with no Plan B planned, is that if one of those bits is active you suddenly have a big workload, trying to work out where you are relative to which bit of it.

So if I was doing it I would plan a viable route, and of course try to get a DCT if possible. Same with controlled airspace, really…

Even IFR, there is no issue when flying the filed route (usually) but often one has to do say a 30 deg right due weather, for say 30 miles, and I have had loads of cases where some military “owner” starts to get very upset and then ATC relay his concern with an increasing alarm. So I tell them “unable to comply due to a charlie bravo on heading xxx” and usually after this is said several times they get the message that I am not going to risk my life.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Believe me, when you are sure there will be a decent FIS for you , it is not really required to plan via the airways. But I agree that – at least on those long flights – it doesn’t really make a big difference distance-wise. Plus it is even more relaxed.

But on those short flights, there is usually no suitable airway at hand, particularly in the Lorraine and Elsace regions, which are totally devoid of airways.

Re the planning, I had obviously studied the horizontal as well as the vertical limits of all those areas that did affect my flight, so had one or two of them been active, I would have found a way.

I really want to encourage pilots to part with their fears of the french aispace and go. Which absolutely doesn’t mean there is no planning required. Common sense.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 18 Jan 18:37
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

On a more general note, I frequently read posts on forums where somebody is asking “how do I plan a route from A to B”.

Given the poster has a PPL, it is tempting to say “buy the map and draw some lines on it, like they taught you in the flying school” but that obviously doesn’t help that individual. Clearly there is more behind these questions, which are hardly uncommon.

Yet, when you actually have the chart, working out a route is just a matter of reading it…

I don’t know the answer but perhaps some pilots are just too scared of charts. And the French and Benelux ones are scary.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I did experience with French FIC back in 2001. After departure from Hagenau towards Paris I contact them, they assigned me squawk, identified…and said not a single word about me heading to an military hot area. When I saw a helicopter taxing on appron, I looked up the freq my self and contact them. They were not too ungry, just politely ask me next time to call them in advance – before entering their airspace.
Yes, I do admin it´s primarily my responsibility, but FIC in DE or CZ is giving you heads up at least – if not an exact vector to avoid area EDR137B while still 40 miles away. As minimum I would appreciate from FIC at least “for you information. military area XX 55 active, avoid”. Those of you who had flown VFR in France knows that the structure of their restricted areas and their vertical limit is so complex. Perhaps not even ATC knows if enter some hot airspace you continue present heading and altitude…

LKKU, LKTB

In 2003 I busted one of the French nuclear power station RAs. I was under a radar service, with an individual squawk, and they just asked for the name of the pilot. Said nothing about the bust. Then 5 months later I got contacted by the UK CAA saying the French asked them to prosecute me for it. I asked for the radar tape which showed the track a few hundred m into the RA and it showed the squawk etc.

The French are very casual about Class D clearances (they don’t issue them, basically – you just fly while they watch you on radar) but I would not rely on them being quite so casual about some other airspace – especially if they then take 5 months to get around to going after you.

So maybe a good thing would be to get an explicit confirmation of each mil area crossing.

ATC tapes may get wiped before 5 months… in the UK, VFR tapes get wiped quickly but IFR (London Control etc) ones get archived at a GCHQ warehouse (Menwith Hill, reportedly) although I doubt the courts get access to anything there.

During the 5 months I actually flew the same route but fortunately above the 3200ft top of the RA so got away with it.

It is also possible France has totally changed their procedures and the FIS controllers have superb coordination with the military. This is possible – France has a very “can do” attitude in the way their run their airspace.

Last Edited by Peter at 18 Jan 18:57
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Well obviously, one would never fly through a ZRT, whether in contact with ATC or not (I know “yours” was not charted, yet). These are something entirely different from the vast military areas that only get activated every now and then.

So maybe a good thing would be to get an explicit confirmation of each mil area crossing.

As Achim said, FIS will get pi$$ed real quick if you start reading out numbers of SUAs to them. A compromise would be a short query “confirm no active military areas to affect”?
Again, it requires a bit of common sense.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 18 Jan 19:18
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany
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