<shrug>
In the general principle, maybe rather than a straight donation, a non-refundable deposit that can be (partially?) deducted from the common dinner bill (and partially EuroGA running costs donation)? So that people get the impression that they get some “value” out of it? If people don’t come, and forfeit the deposit, this could even be used to compensate the restaurant for the unused table?
Peter, you want to rely on the “pain” effect of “loosing” the money if one doesn’t come. Either it is a painful amount and people will balk at paying it, or it is a trivial amount, and people will not mind “loosing it”. Maybe you will find a Goldilocks amount between the two, dunno.
Also for small amounts, the “transaction friction” becomes comparatively intolerable. I’d need to go into the Internet banking to do a bank transfer, or for a credit card payment enter that * Visa/Mastercard “3-DSecure” login and token code and … (the Luxembourg implementation basically requires that you use the same authentication that is your whole “digital identity” which accesses your bank accounts, tax declarations, power to file requests with city hall and ministries, etc… So you “want” to keep that secure, so the login is complicated. I would live it as yet another hassle in the way of flying, not for the money (assuming small amount) but for the time it takes.
Frankly, out of “optimising competition mind”, I would be tempted to just send the reservation fee/donation/… last minute when I do know that I’m coming.
Another thought to throw into the mix.
Perhaps for one fly in per year, consider having it close to a location serviced by a loco carrier. That would allow people to book an airline alternative with a throw away ticket. So if the weather enroute isn’t suitable, everyone still meets up, but arrive with their airline ticket. If the weather if fine, the ticket was cheap enough to throw away.
Maybe it defeats the purpose for a lot of people, but for just one flyin per year, it would perhaps give a guarantee that the event is going ahead on the specific day, hail rain or shine.
you want to rely on the “pain” effect
Not “pain” 
(for that it would have to be the “Cirrus figure” of €220) but the old principle that if something is completely free, few value it. Look at the internet: emails are basically free; result = spam.
The idea of using it towards a dinner is a great one, but (it got discussed too) what do you do if you collect say €10 per aircraft and then 3 people turn up in it. OK; you charge them €30. IIRC, on the €220 Cirrus fly-ins it was €220 for each person wanting a room, as the money was used to “obtain” a hotel discount; I don’t know if the hotel actually got paid or if the hotel just agreed to a discount for a group which would be of a “reliable size” because they all paid so much. But what if it is a family of 5; would it be fair to charge them €50? I don’t really like this. I think any donation should be per aircraft, and should go to EuroGA. Let’s face it, these amounts – a few mins of 100LL burn – are so utterly trivial. We are debating just the principle.
The donations are via the paypal button; you don’t do a bank transfer. Unless you can’t/won’t do paypal.
Also it would make sense to donate only if not already donated. One incredibly kind guy has been donating €1k! And a lot of people do donate, more than €10. But most participants don’t.
having it close to a location serviced by a loco carrier
Can’t offer you stats on this but I would bet the number of locations would shrink dramatically. The best fly-ins have been to places which are practically inaccessible by airline. Mali Losinj, Elba…
I don’t think paying say €10 will make fewer people drop out (€220 certainly would have that effect which is why all the other groups do that) but it would avoid the situation where say 50 people join the telegram group but only 10 might come.
Just a thought based on Dan’s tagline. Would it be an idea to share the flight with others on the forum if you’ve got seats available. Some might be glad of the company and others would like to profit from the experience. Maybe they would then reciprocate at the next fly in.
Some may be happy to share the flying and the cost if owner and insurance are happy.
Ready to be shot down in flames.😁
gallois wrote:
Dan’s tagline
? Wasn’t me for sure, credit to whoever came with this.
Staying on this very idea, we all have different opinions. Lucky enough to have my own steed, albeit a 2 seater “only”, I’m very picky about whom I invite to ride along. The next problem is that not everybody will be able to get on/off my little baby, without resorting to a shoehorn/corkscrew combination…
And I sure don’t need passengers biting their nails off, or using the bag, or commenting about my flying style, thank you 
As stated in the actual fly-in thread, I took part to many fly-ins, some private, some organised by institutions, clubs, association, etc. Yes, once the date is fixed, the weather dices are rolling…
Regarding paying to attend, I’m totally opposed, period.
On the same token, it is even worse when an association like the LAA charges for landing slots like happened this year at Popham… message to the LAA: our Swiss homebuilder’s association EAS, like the French one, like the Austrian one, like the German one, like the Italian one, etc, don’t charge anything! Our EAS even pays the participant’s landing fee at the airfield since the very same attendees are providing the attraction.
The next problem regarding weather I see here is twofold:
- I’m surprised the weather is such a problem since so many people here are IFRed
- waiting for perfect weather to arrange the Brits, and South/North/East/West of Europe is labelled MIxxx
For me the easier the better, and these are the only things one needs:
- location
- date
- infos about the evening dinner given here (scrap Telegram)
Yes, there might few attendees, or none, or a few more than just a few, but for a fly-in of this size, not much more is needed.
Regarding paying to attend, I’m totally opposed, period.
Would you regard €10 as excessive (assuming “you” have not already donated to EuroGA) given the organiser has had to do perhaps dozens of emails?
LAA charges for landing slots like happened this year at Popham
That’s probably a different issue, and I don’t know why they did that (Popham is a grass field which reportedly once parked 600 ULs, so not a whole lot of organisation should be needed, plus there will be massive “group solidarity” so a big turnout anyway).
I’m surprised the weather is such a problem since so many people here are IFRed
For LECD one needs good wx to get in, and to get out.
infos about the evening dinner given here (scrap Telegram)
Who would organise the dinner, and how, if they have no idea how many (or indeed if anybody at all) is coming? That is the first question a restaurant asks.
Peter, I think you might be overestimating at least some of the people around. Using me for an example – sure, I would like to finally make to one of the fly-ins, but as all of my flying, it “would be nice to” and not “I have to”. So I join the Telegram group to be “in the loop” and ready to go, should the stars so align. I even prep some of the flights, and end up not doing them. Never would I ever think that participation in the Telegram group is a firm confirmation of attendance.
The way I see it, charging a significant participation fee would on one hand cause unwelcome pressure to do the flight on those who did pay it, and discourage those who didn’t, for whatever reason. Realistically, money is not the issue, we all spend more on flying each month than that fee would ever be. I probably wouldn’t pay it, unless it’d be something I could consider a donation for the servers and code development for EuroGA. Making it a kind of pre-payment for a planned meal would just complicate things needlessly.
I think things are good the way they are. Those that can make it, do, those who don’t make it have their regrets and look forward to the next one, hoping it will be the one.
Perhaps, but just perhaps, a EuroGA Zoom session on prepping for the flight (WX, procedures, what to expect from ATC along the way) the week before the fly-in would give some, like me, the extra motivation they need to actually file the FPL, get up early, and go. On the other hand, I do understand it requires time and energy from many, which they could spend more productively. And we all know that agreeing on a time that works for all is hard.
Having written all that, I’ll add that Spain is too far for me to consider, but next time anything say east of Aosta is in play, I’ll, again, join the Telegram group and hope to come. Or I’ll finally make it to LJPZ on my own, maybe grabbing @Snoopy on the way :)
To be clear, I am quite against the large amounts charged by the others. You have to lay it on pretty thick to even begin to justify those, plus you need a lot of brand and/or national solidarity. But some trivial donation like €10 may produce a telegram group participation which is nearer to who may actually come.
Otherwise, since the issues mentioned have happened too many times, I think there is a risk of no fly-ins being organised ever again, by myself and even less likely by anyone else.
Some sort of better solution needs to be found and I am trying to establish a suitable range of parameters, like 2.5 mins of avgas burn, or 5 mins of avgas burn
OK, point taken, but I still don’t understand why one would treat participation in a Telegram group as an indicator of attendance.
Perhaps a poll (here or in the Telegram group) would be a better indicator, and help with the estimates?
I’m probably one of the more guilty ones when it comes to wanting to come and not following through, but it was never of ill intentions. Had I made a 10 EUR commitment, it would have had no bearing whatsoever on the outcome. I doubt 100 EUR would have, but with a 100 EUR buy-in I’d probably hold off on committing to very much closer to the actual date.
Is the issue more of it not being worth the effort for 3-5 planes, but worth it for 10-15, or the aggravation of organizing parking / fuel / food for N people but having N/3 actually show up and getting bad looks from the airport / restaurant / hotel you talked to and gave the high estimate that didn’t materialize?
For what it is worth, I sincerely hope fly-ins do continue to be organized / advertised.
