Graham wrote:
Ah yes. The time-honoured defence of communism, or fairly hard-left socialism, is that although it’s been tried many times it’s never been tried properly. So what you need is an autocratic state to ensure it is implemented properly, which leads to…
You are misrepresenting me. I’m not defending communism (in the sense of leninism which is what everyone means with that word these days) rather the opposite. My point is that the Soviet Union did not even try to implement the “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need” maxim. It might have been tried by the libertarian left during the Spanish civil war, but I don’t know that.
gallois wrote:
Actually, outside politics it has been tried and works extremely well.
Interesting thought by itself that a political system works extremely well outside politics.
gallois wrote:
It can be seen in the way communities.around world come together whenever there is a catastrophe. … Or those who give their time share their food and often their houses when it floods have inundated villages and towns.
In my opinion there are two factors that influence this massively and both are not transferrable to states: Proximity and finiteness.
People are social animals by nature – but that kind of “social” is not a theoretic concept but a rather immediate “if I see (literally) somebody in need, I help”. It’s much more likely to motivate people to collect litter from the local pond than to do something to fight starvation in Africa. The good thing about the litter is, that you can immediately see an effect (doesn’t matter how much it changes in the grand scheme of things) and know that in the evening you can go home and your help is (successfully finished).
That is something completely different from supporting others for the entire rest of your life.
Graham wrote:
So what you need is an autocratic state to ensure it is implemented properly, which leads to…
Most of the real existing examples of something close to communism that actually works for a longer period of time are actually functional theocracies (which is a form of autocracy). Plus these communities are typically quite small so that everybody knows everybody and the proximity requirement above is fulfilled.
gallois wrote:
Actually, outside politics it has been tried and works extremely well.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Interesting thought by itself that a political system works extremely well outside politics.
Absolutely good politics stop when politicians get involved. IMO Politicians on a National and International level are idealists curbed by their need for power and the need to be liked.
Looking how different countries fared during the pandemic might also let some green grass grow in unlikely places.
Friends of ours in China tell us that they are back to normal since Summer 2020 and look with disbelief how Europe falls from one catastrophe to the next.
Likewise I have heard from folks from NZ and Taiwan.
Maybe we are looking in the wrong place.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Likewise I have heard from folks from NZ
If you consider indefinitely closed borders as “normal”, sure.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
China tell us that they are back to normal
Depends what you consider normal. I will take even your most extreme European lockdown fantasy scenario over living in a repressive one-party autocracy.
The UK is largely back to normal and has been since the summer. The only real restrictions are those relating to overseas travel, which are irritating but I can live with them for now. We have no mandatory medical procedures nor mandatory showing of health credentials to perform everyday activities, so it truly is normal.
Graham wrote:
Depends what you consider normal. I will take even your most extreme European lockdown fantasy scenario over living in a repressive one-party autocracy.
Ever been there? I know some folks who live there, westerners, and they don’t have too much problems. Lockdown was tougher there, a lot tougher, but it was over much faster.
Airborne_Again wrote:
If you consider indefinitely closed borders as “normal”, sure.
Against this scenario here? Anytime.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Ever been there?
No.
I’ve never been to the Seychelles, but I know it’s hot there.
I’ve never been to a photocopier convention, but I know it would be dull.
I’ve never been to China, but I know it’s a repressive one-party autocracy with no political dissent permitted and an absolutely atrocious human rights record. I’ve no interest in going there.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Lockdown was tougher there, a lot tougher
I’m sure it was. If you don’t do as you’re told in China, you just get taken away.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Against this scenario here? Anytime.
The question wasn’t what you or I would prefer, but what is “normal”. Indefinitely closed borders of a western-style democracy or even most dictatorships is in no way “normal”.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Indefinitely closed borders of a western-style democracy or even most dictatorships is in no way “normal”.
No it is not, but it certainly is not without precedence in a crisis. As it kept NZ from experiencing several waves… it did what it was supposed to do.
